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Post by sweepleader on Jun 4, 2018 18:43:19 GMT -5
I got the pulley/magnet off, no model information visible. Page 98 of the 3rd shop manual shows the pump, I am pretty sure, but I still don't know the model or engine. It seems to be a 9, but the Tilly carb and the picture of the pump make it an "early" model according to the manual text. It likely does not matter much which model it is I guess. The good thing is the engine appears to be low hours. The points etc. look like they are original, none of the screws appear to have been messed with. And the points were very good, little wear.
There is a lot of drag though, when trying to crank the engine. It turns over but its like the parking brake is on. I will pull the pump housing off and have look in there.
Thanks for the help, I will let you guys know what I come up with.
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Post by jerseyhighlander on Jun 6, 2018 10:51:56 GMT -5
I got the pulley/magnet off, no model information visible. Page 98 of the 3rd shop manual shows the pump, I am pretty sure, but I still don't know the model or engine. It seems to be a 9, but the Tilly carb and the picture of the pump make it an "early" model according to the manual text. It likely does not matter much which model it is I guess. The good thing is the engine appears to be low hours. The points etc. look like they are original, none of the screws appear to have been messed with. And the points were very good, little wear. There is a lot of drag though, when trying to crank the engine. It turns over but its like the parking brake is on. I will pull the pump housing off and have look in there. Thanks for the help, I will let you guys know what I come up with. It was worth a shot.
If I remember correctly from the digging around I did, I think from that Smokestack link I posted earlier, the second engine type was a slow speed version that would be very notably different physically.
I'd agree with opening up the pump housing to look for the source of drag. Could be anything from a dried out/buggered shaft seal to a couple plastic bags & some cord wrapped around everything or the ever popular, one or more dead rodents that got in there but couldn't get back out. Maybe a little of everything.
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Post by sweepleader on Jun 6, 2018 11:13:45 GMT -5
I did pull the pump housing last night but I ran out of time to thoroughly investigate. There was some very stinky water and a bunch of corrosion. The drain plug has not been out for a long time, it will be a treat. Someone else was in there ahead of me, the mating surfaces were all covered with a coat of new sticky grease. In spite of that, the cover was pretty tough to get off. I guess I can feel safe that leaving water in it over the winter is not too dangerous given the state of the drain plug and lack of frost damage. The plug will come out, I have to fear on that point. I might have to blast but it will come out.
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Post by sweepleader on Jun 24, 2018 20:14:42 GMT -5
OK, so I took another lick at the pump and with the assistance of a couple of friends got the impeller loose. That is what was stuck, the plastic wedges on the shaft that allow the engine to stop slowly if the impeller encounters a rock, are what was slipping and feeling like something was wrapped around the shaft. I had pulled the impeller bolt out some time ago but the impeller was stuck to the housing with rust I suppose. I have not been able to get the inner housing off the pump so the impeller is still stuck inside. I cannot see behind it.
I put some heat and a slide hammer to the inner housing but no dice. It is soaking now, from hot to cold and I will reheat it in the next few days to see if it will come loose.
I did find out now that the engine is free to spin, that it has spark! One big hurdle jumped. The gas tank still looks like a sewer pit so there is some work to do there. There is a vacuum fuel pump mounted on the top of the tank that I am pretty sure will need some work. It looks like the bottom of a Tilly carb so the parts might not be too hard. The carb has float, not the usual diaphragm type, I will take it apart too, likely full of sewage as well.
I have a new air filter on the way, not sure just why as it will be some time before this pump needs one. I guess because it was available and not much money.
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Post by sweepleader on Jul 28, 2018 21:10:55 GMT -5
I have worked on this pump off and on since June, trying to get the pump apart. I repeatedly heated, soaked, and beat on the inner housing with regular hammers and a slide hammer. Trying desperatly not to break anything. No dice. I finally built a puller using a hydraulic hollow pull cylinder from a Horrible Freight electrical knock out punch kit. I bought the kit some time ago as it was pretty cheap and I always wanted a hollow puller. I have used it twice for knockouts and about 4 or 5 times for other odd jobs. I am really getting to like it. Anyway, I put a 3/4 square bar 3 inches long with a 1/2 inch hole through it in the inlet opening of the inner housing. The bar was attached to the pull cylinder with a 1/2 inch grade 8 bolt and a threaded adapter to the 5/8 inner thread of the cylinder. I had made the adapter sometime back for a different job and only had to thread the inside of it to take the bolt. I have had the bolt laying around in a drawer for perhaps 35 years, it was a spare for when I put the roll cage in my '62 Chev truck. I bought several different lengths as I did not know which would fit. A rectangular tube with a hole in it and two legs welded on spaced to fit the outer pump housing and the puller was ready to go. I had to put enough pressure on it that the 1.5 x 3 inch tube bent about 1/4" between the 12 inch spaced legs. I had soaked the stuck joint before and I doused it again today, I have no idea if any of that helped. The aluminum had corroded enough to expand and stick the iron VERY tight. Nothing broke as it came apart. Now I will have to clean it all up and see if I can get it to run. Oh, yeah, the fuel tank looks like it is full of maple syrup. Might have to do some thing about that. Might need a carb kit too, eh? Corrosion inside pump:  Inner Housing by Dan MacDonald, on Flickr Puller and inner housing loose:  Puller in Place by Dan MacDonald, on Flickr  Puller Closeup by Dan MacDonald, on Flickr Impeller with Housing off:  Inner Housing Off by Dan MacDonald, on Flickr Impeller off showing seal:  Impeller and Seal by Dan MacDonald, on Flickr The inner housing is supposed to be a slip fit, when the outer housing comes off, the inner housing is supposed to slide off to allow clearing debris from the impeller. The stuck drain plug prevented drying out the pump so corrosion took over. The seal LOOKS fine, hopefully it is. Now that I have seen the impeller I am convinced this pump is a 9TP3-1A. I am not sure how that model decodes but it matches the parts as shown in the IPL. I think it is 380 or 385 gallons per minute, there is nothing in the IPL but the remnants of glue from a big decal on the pump housing seem to indicate the GPM. I am really looking forward to seeing this thing pump. |
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Post by jerseyhighlander on Jul 30, 2018 22:05:45 GMT -5
That's some serious work. Making me leery of what I may run into, when I finally make time to dig into mine. I wonder if filling the pump with a fluid electrolyte and cathodic cleaning would have helped take some of the grief out of getting it apart.
At least I'm getting a preview of what the works looks like inside. That impeller looks like it would pass tennis balls with ease.
Maple syrup in the gas tank... You too huh? I'm pretty sure mine has a few pinholes too. Haven't touched it yet but I'm anticipating the carb should be pretty simple. It's about as rudimentary a carb as I've ever seen.
Keep the pictures and progress notes coming.
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Post by sweepleader on Jul 31, 2018 7:04:39 GMT -5
The carb has me worried, with the crap in the tank the inside of the carb maybe corroded or plugged. How about a kit for the fuel pump, separate from the carb. This is going to be interesting...
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Post by jerseyhighlander on Jul 31, 2018 9:38:03 GMT -5
Forgot all about that separate fuel pump. Stupid of me as that's why the carb is more rudimentary without it. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if you could make most of the parts it may need. What's in there besides a standard pump diaphragm & gasket?
I have seen a few of those carbs NOS on feeBay. Pricey, but they are still around.
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Post by sweepleader on Jul 31, 2018 14:27:16 GMT -5
I don't know what is in there but I do have an IPL. I may ask you to measure the spare seal you have, after more careful parusal I see that I broke the seal in mine taking it apart. I don't really know what I did to break it but it is a new fresh, clean break so I can't blame anyone else. I expect it will be a standard seal so it should not be too big a deal finding one.
I think I will try to clean the tank and carb to see if it will run before I put the pump back together. That way I should have a better idea how much it is going to cost.
I will try to find some really waterproof paint to do the inside with, to limit the future corrosion.
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Post by sweepleader on Aug 19, 2018 19:53:57 GMT -5
Looking at the seal again I realized that the corrosion swelling inside the bore is what broke the ceramic seat. I have not been able to remove the remnants. Likely they will yield to a hammer when I get to it. Leon had a seal kit with all the o-rings as well as the seal so the pump part should be mostly taken care of. The seal is different from modern stuff, its for a 1" shaft which is common and the modern OD is the same. The oddity is that the seat is bigger than the modern stuff. I was thinking about putting in a shim to make up the difference when I was told Leon had the kit.
In checking the carb I found it is a Tillotson MT-44B, I think someone told me that in another thread. I pulled the cover off the float bowl and was pleasantly surprised to find very little gunk and no corrosion. Must have never had ethanol in it, thank goodness for small favors. I don't know if the fuel pump will work, there is a primer bulb on it that does work but pulling the engine over did not have the same effect of spitting nasty crud out the fuel line. Maybe the pump needs more engine speed.
I will put some fuel in it and see if it will run in the next few days.
If anyone has a carb kit or pump parts please let me know. Leon has an NOS carb if I get desperate. I don't have a carb kit number or Tillotson numbers for the pump. The Homelite number for the diaphragm is 74865 and the gasket is 74962 I think. That is what shows in the IPL but the web brings up some Ryobi nonsense gasket that is plainly wrong. I suspect they are the same parts as used in a Tilly on a Zip or Wiz or something. The pump is a Tilly and it is about the same look as those carbs. I don't have an IPL for anything with one of those carbs so I cannot look up the parts to see if the gasket and diaphragm are the same.
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Post by 5terrysupersaws on Aug 19, 2018 20:43:18 GMT -5
eBay search of Tillotson MT Carburetor shows ; Tillotson MT Carb. Repair Kit For a Cushman 810478-SK
May work on a Tilly MT-44B
Also see a Tillotson RK-597...for a MT-92A
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Post by sweepleader on Mar 31, 2020 19:47:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I know it has been a while, something over a year, but I got it to run a little today. No spark, checked the condenser, that tested good so I cleaned the points and got spark. Shot some mix in the plug hole and pulled the cord. It ran about 5 seconds! Yeah! Got a plug coming tomorrow and I will get after the pump kit as it will not pull fuel from the tank. I think the carb will have to come off to get clearance to pull the pump. You can see in the pics that the pump is tucked under the carb. There are 6 Tilly screws holding the pump to the tank and about 4 of them are pretty deep. Once I get it apart I will be looking for a kit of some sort.   |
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Post by onlyhomelites on Mar 31, 2020 22:57:28 GMT -5
It's always nice to hear one fire up for the first time, even on a prime! I've never had one of those style pumps...it'll be interesting to see what the guts look like.
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Post by sweepleader on Apr 1, 2020 12:05:36 GMT -5
The pump is apart, here is what it looks like:    I found a Tillotson "Quick Reference Catalog" from 6/70 that lists the TM-44B carb. It lists RK-297 and GS-106 as the repair kit and gasket set. It does not show what the parts look like or if they contain the fuel pump gasket and diaphragm. Anyone have one of those kits to compare to the pictures above or know what carb the above parts would fit? The Homelite part numbers are 74865 dia, 74962 gasket, 25361 air filter elbow gasket. I have had the carb apart and think it will be OK as it is. I will need a carb to air cleaner gasket but I could make one if I have to, it is pretty simple. Here's a link to the Tillotson catalog: tillotson.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Quick-Reference-Catalog-1970.pdf |
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Post by sweepleader on Apr 1, 2020 12:15:56 GMT -5
I should have known, Leon has all three listed for 7-29 and 8-29 saws. I just ordered them but figured I would leave the above posted in case someone else could use it.
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Post by sweepleader on Apr 7, 2020 18:19:58 GMT -5
Well, she runs on fuel from the tank. I got the parts I needed from Leon's Chainsaw Parts and Repair and put them in. No fuss, no muss. Primed using the bulb, wrapped up the rope (special option, no spring to give trouble and very easy to re-wrap the rope) and gave her a tug. Oops, dang near pulled it off the cart I had it on. Next pull, with one hand on the cylinder top, fired right up. I found out that there is a rust hole in the muffler, I think I can repair that with some braze. The smoke is part of a test I ran looking for exhaust leaks. Well, maybe partly cuz I wanted to be sure things were oiled. I think they are. Here's about 20 seconds of video proof. First YouTube, be kind. youtu.be/UASNSe-d334  |
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Post by onlyhomelites on Apr 8, 2020 15:18:27 GMT -5
Nice! It's good to see the old girl running good!
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Post by rowdy235 on Apr 8, 2020 22:33:59 GMT -5
Sounds great! I bet that thing will move some water.
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Post by onlyhomelites on Apr 8, 2020 23:35:47 GMT -5
The real question is: How do you integrate this into your fire truck?  |
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Post by sweepleader on Apr 9, 2020 13:50:58 GMT -5
Sounds great! I bet that thing will move some water. Its rated to move 380 or 385 gallons per minute, you are right, that is a lot of water. I am sure that is optimistic, almost certainly rated for no lift and no output pressure. That would be the same way most pumps are rated. As for Leon's question, " How do you integrate this into your fire truck?", I am not completely certain yet but I will come up with a way. First I need to adapt the suction and discharge for fire hose threads, then I need to figure out how to carry it on the truck. I think it's too big for any of the compartments, I have not tried it yet. I am going to build a trailer hitch rack which may work, or I might need a trailer. We will see later when the ground is dry enough to get the firetruck out of the back yard. |
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