Bar Steel

[rarefish383]

I still hang out on the other site a good bit, and this thought hit me while I was there, so I posted the question. Should have come here first. Too many weekend warriors over there with opinions that have never picked up a Homelite. Anyway, my question is, were bars made back in the day, say the Super 1050/2100/3100 days made of harder steel than today's bars? A week or so ago I pulled the bar off my Stihl 660 and when I lifted the chain off I noticed the bar was starting to roll over on the edges. My 40+ year old Homelites have zero roll over, especially the big saws. I guess most of them are thicker too, running 404. It just surprised me that a saw that's only about 4 years old would show that kind of wear, and my old manual pump saws show virtually no wear. All of my newer saws have the oil pumps turned up all the way, and if the oil tank is not empty when the fuel pump is, I look for a problem, Joe.

[sweepleader]

I think you have it there Joe, in the old days they made the bars from the best steel they could find. It might not have been as good as the best steels today, but in my opinion, it was better than today's cheepest. If you realize that inflation has raised prices somewhere around 10 to 20 times in that time frame, a $200 saw then would be $2000 to $4000 now. Bars then were $20 and I bought a 16" Oregon bar with chain a short while back for $40...

[rarefish383]

Good point, I bought a 30" bar, a couple years ago on ebay, for my XL924. I was surprised at how inexpensive the bar and chain combo was.

[jerseyhighlander]

Common steel is junk today compared to way back when. Kinda like most things today, which is why we are all here I guess. I'm gonna stop now before I get on a rant a mile long.

[Deleted]

Joe,I'm wondering if you maybe just got a bad bar?I have an MS310 that I bought in spring of 2006 & it still has the original bar on it.It's not rolled down at all.I've cut a lot of wood with that saw too,& last spring I put a 24 in.Forester bar & full chisel chain on it to take down a good sized hard maple for my neighbor.I guess you can thank the size of the maple for getting me into Homelites because even coming in from both sides,I still couldn't finish cutting the widest part of the tree's trunk.That's when I bought my 450 & put a 30 in.bar & chain on it.I still need to get over there & complete the job.
    This post was made with due respect to all members involved.

[rarefish383]

That is the bar I use for milling, and I'd rather run it just a tad loose than a tad tight, so I may be getting some chain slap. It was rolled top and bottom, but I flip the bar every time the chain comes off, whether swapping bars or new chains, Joe.

[Deleted]

I didn't know you were milling lumber.I assume you're running a skip tooth chain?Regardless,milling is really working your saw as opposed to simple cross cutting logs.When milling you're running your saw the entire length of the log,whether it be 8 ft.or 20 ft.When cross cutting you're only working the saw for whatever diameter of the log is - it's a much shorter time to cut.The bar isn't getting anywhere near as hot as when you're milling.Heat does a lot of damage to steel,get it hot enough & it'll change the molecular structure of steel making it much weaker.I don't like the amount of oil my MS310 puts out when cutting.I was always taught that if your saw's oiling system is working properly you should go through a tank of oil every time you go through a tank of gas.I'm lucky if I go through a half a tank of oil.I'm going to thin out my bar oil this yr.with some kerosene & see if that makes a difference.
    This post was made with due respect to all members involved.

[rarefish383]

You've got to remember that even on a 30" log the first cut is only 3" wide and is not much more than bark. The next might be 6-7 inches. I milled with my 1050 for years before I got the 660, that bar shows no sign of wear, and most of the work with the 660 is with the 25" bar cutting firewood. In my whole life I have never had a bar get hot enough you couldn't pick it up with your hands. That's kind of my point with oil, more, more more. Since I bought the 660 I've only milled 8-10 8' logs. Most of my milling was done with the 1050. Just because I said that was my milling bar, it doesn't mean I mill a lot. That bar actually gets very little use compared to the 25". I cut about 10 cord of Oak a year and most of that is with the Stihl and 25" bar. Comparing apples to apples, the 1050 with 36" bar has done nothing but mill for 10 years. I have another one with 24" bar for firewood. Comparing apples to oranges, the 1050 is running .404 and the rails are visibly thicker than the rails on the 660 running 3/8's. I started to convert my 660 to .404, but I thought I was retiring the big Homelites and would switch to all 3/8's. Now that I'm stuck on this issue, I think I'll take some pics and measurements of the two bars side by side. Even better I have a friend with a Rockwell tester, I'll get Gary to test the hardness of the bars and report back. Thanks for all the help guys, Joe.

[Deleted]

Joe,I think Kyle (jerseyhighlander) pretty much hit the nail on the head when he said that today's steel is junk.Even though this is not what he meant - today's steel is being refined in Japan out of recycled scrap steel,as opposed to bars that were made of steel that was most likely processed at Bethlehem steel in Pittsburg,or Buffalo.I don't know the size of the plant(s)in Pittsburg,but in Buffalo (and Lackawanna) in the 1960's,at the height of the plant's operation,it employed over 6,000 people,& those plants pumped out QUALITY steel made of virgin ore,not recycled (s)crap.So,most likely you have a very valid point about why your bar on your 660 is wearing out prematurely.The hardness test that you are going to have done most likely will verify this.In my previous post I tried to give the steel industry some slack,but after much thought,the latter seems to be more logical.
       This post was made with due respect to all members involved.

[rarefish383]

Morning Ed, my buddy doesn't have a Rockwell tester. But, then I remembered that my cousin's son in law is an aerospace engineer and builds tools for the space station. I'm going to ask him if he can test the steel. In the meantime, my first friend that I asked, said to do the cheapy test. Run a file across both and see which one the file bite's into easiest. I think it's a combo of all of the above. If you look at how thick the rails are on the .404, compared to how thin the rails are on the 3/8, it's kind of no wonder it wears quicker, Joe.