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Post by robert1 on Jun 3, 2022 15:30:23 GMT -5
On two previous threads I detail my ongoing efforts to change piston on my 410. Now I have found the two lock nuts and screwed cylinder to crankcase and the manual I have mentioned to torque to 80 to 90 inch pounds. Is there a special torque wrench for that or do you just get it as tight as you can by hand or what? Also, am I supposed to be using those T-handled allen wrenches instead of the L shaped one? Or does it matter? Any help appreciated.
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Post by undee70ss on Jun 3, 2022 17:00:27 GMT -5
It takes a special tool to measure torque. Do you really need it? I don't use one. Also on cylinders, tighten the bolts /nuts in a X pattern, so the cylinder clamps evenly to the crankcase.
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Post by w30bob on Jun 3, 2022 19:56:05 GMT -5
Hi robert1,
Undee is right, it's not necessary........UNLESS you've never torqued bolts and don't have a feel for what a proper torque is and is not. You can only strip a bolt or stud once, and you won't be a happy camper. So if you're not familiar with torqueing such things I'd recommend you beg, borrow or steal a torque wrench to get a feel for what's proper. They're not expensive, especially in the lower torque values you're working with and I think you can borrow or rent one for a few bucks from your local Autozone, O'Reilly, Pep Boys or Advance Auto. Of course ripping out threads and snapping bolt heads off also leaves a memorable impression....but usually not when you want it to. You gotta love that 'learning curve' thingy! Just a thought.
;O)
bob
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Post by robert1 on Jun 4, 2022 16:05:23 GMT -5
That's what I kinda figured about the torque wrench. I do have an inch pound torque wrench but no Allen sockets let alone a long extension.
I lightly tightened the bolts with my Allen wrench and pair of pliers and put the thing back together and pulled the string and it seems to work OK but doesn't start. It has spark. The dealer I took it to to fix it last summer said it had gas and spark but he could not figure out what is wrong with it. I put a compression checker on it and it only measured about 45 lbs so I figured it must not have enough compression to pull in any gas so I bought the new piston and rings. Now with new piston and rings it still measure 45 lbs. What does that tell me? Would broken reed cause low compression? Not sure where to go from here now.
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Post by blythkd on Jun 5, 2022 9:55:44 GMT -5
How well did you inspect the cylinder bore? If the chrome plating has been compromised in any way, that could be your issue. Most of the 410's that I've overhauled had been pretty well burned up and got a new piston/rings and cylinder.
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Post by robert1 on Jun 5, 2022 21:35:20 GMT -5
I didn't mention it above but I also replaced the cylinder. My dealer said he didn't know why it didn't work but since he has rheumatoid arthritis now real bad that he didn't spend too much time pulling the string so I figured he didn't spend the time to check the compression. So when I checked it and it was only 45 I figured it needed new rings at least. So I saw I could get a piston with the rings so ordered that since the price was not too bad. Then I decided to do it right and get the cylinder too. I love this saw when it works. Cuts very strong. When I bought this saw in 1990 from this guy I had a choice of a twin cylinder Deere saw made by Echo and this saw. I decided on this one even though it was a lot more expensive because I figured I could get parts forever on it but wasn't sure about the Echo parts. I knew they were hard to get sometimes based on other dealings I had with Deere. Any advice on where to go from here? I would have preferred to have my dealer fix this. I didn't really want to get into it but now I'm stuck so I will forge ahead I guess. The dealer said the gas boot was fine. f
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Post by blythkd on Jun 5, 2022 22:14:44 GMT -5
Did you shoot some oil in it before running the compression? I always assembled pistons/rings/cylinders with plenty of oil so no need to oil afterwards but just covering all the bases.
If the intake air is choked off somehow, it'll keep the saw from building compression when testing.
After that, about all that is left is bearings. Bad bearings, crank and/or rod, would lower compression but they would have to be in very bad shape. I know I'm reaching here.
I guess at this point we're assuming all the correct parts were used?
Edit: Another thought, have you put your compression tester on a known good saw to check and see how much it registers? Also, does the tester have a long hose on it?
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Post by w30bob on Jun 6, 2022 13:36:59 GMT -5
Hi robert1,
A lot of people forget to mention this, but when you check compression you have to hold the throttle wide open. Otherwise the engine can't get a sufficient 'gulp' of air to compress, as the air it breathes has to come thru the carb. Also, compression should be checked when the engine is hot, as both the rings and the cylinder have expanded and shrunk respectively, which in your case can't be done. So a shot of oil on the piston top, as The Kid mentions, will sort of act as a band-aid for that. Also, the faster you pull the handle.....the higher the compression might be, as it has less time to leak down. So put some oil on the top of the piston (don't go nuts, just a squirt will do you), hold the throttle open........and give her a good strong pull. If it still says you're low on compression.......get another compression gauge just for sanity sake and try that. At 45psi it shouldn't pass the redneck handle test for compression. With your saw on the ground...pick it up just by the starter rope handle and let it hang down. If the starter cord unravels....you have low compression. If it stays put........you should be good to go. Got to love them rednecks....if given the chance they probably could have figured out how to get to the moon and back for way less than what NASA cost!!!
;O)
bob
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Post by robert1 on Jun 7, 2022 2:03:42 GMT -5
Good advice from both of you. It is now 1:40 am. I spent yesterday fixing the damage to the side of the garage that my 98 father did when he backed into it with the Lincoln. He takes up most of my time so my questions are erratic here since I don't get the time to mess with the saw every day.
I used plenty of oil in the new cylinder bore when I assembled the saw and put a couple good long squirts in the spark plug hole. I did not know about the throttle needing to be opened so I will try that. The compression guage is new. Paid probably $20 for it because I could not find my 50 year old one and it was the kind you have to shove into the spark plug hole and keep pressure on it anyway (not threaded). I have since found that. Anyway, the new one does have a long hose and is probably made in China. I just did the redneck compression check and the string did kind of slowly unravel. Took awhile. Also, I don't have the bar on it so maybe it would have been faster with it on. I may try that again tomorrow. I'm in my pajama s now and bare feet so garage is not where I want to spend a lot of time in the middle of the night. Also, this saw has a compression release. Does that factor in anywhere?
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Post by blythkd on Jun 7, 2022 6:15:30 GMT -5
410 with a compression release? That would be a first for me. Where is this compression release and how does it engage and reset?
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Post by w30bob on Jun 7, 2022 21:33:22 GMT -5
Where 'The Kid' is going with that is if there's a compression release (I'm not familiar with 410 Homey, so I can't take a side here), but if there is one.....it's basically a leak path from the combustion chamber when it's engaged. So if this valve is malfunctioning......or not closing......your compression goes to shit and you won't have any. Sure would explain your dilemma, now wouldn't it? I just checked the Rev 3 IPL for the 410 and I don't see a compression release. So if your saw has one.........the first question is........is it really a 410?
;O)
bob
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Post by robert1 on Jun 8, 2022 9:50:17 GMT -5
It doesn't have a compression release. My mistake. It is a throttle hold down button or something like that.
I just got off the phone with a guy who has a compression checker and hopefully not one with a long hose. I am going to take the saw to him in an hour and we'll check it. I will post the results here.
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okie
Saw Builder
Posts: 201
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Post by okie on Jun 8, 2022 19:58:47 GMT -5
Lots of info on-line about torque!!!!!!!!!
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Post by robert1 on Jun 9, 2022 7:09:00 GMT -5
I checked compression with good meter without long hose and with the choke plate open and with multiple pulls on the string and it is about 75 psi.
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okie
Saw Builder
Posts: 201
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Post by okie on Jun 9, 2022 8:47:49 GMT -5
I checked compression with good meter without long hose and with the choke plate open and with multiple pulls on the string and it is about 75 psi. the SPECIAL USUALLY white colored low pressure schrader valve needs to be right in the spark plug adapter. You might see what your gauge reads on a know good running saw. Here is link to some posts about Chainsaw compression gauges that I happen to have on file. I'll post some more info in the next post down: www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/compression-tester-issues.310133/I got 3 of the Napa 700-9556 compression gauge Schrader valves today after the local NAPA ordered from their warehouse. The come 5 in a box and you can buy them each @ approx. $2.20 each. They worked A-ok. One was defective out of it's sealed package, was not spring loaded on back check due to a broken spring, noticed immediately before attempting install for test.. 3 /2018 Napa #700 9556 is obsolete. Here is a special low pressure schrader valve for compression gauges Milton and Lisle part number's and I seen them on flea bay as still available. Milton 1251-2 @ about $5 each Lisle 20100 @ about $7 Update info 12/20 Possible good compression gauge for chainsaws at $40, STANDIX 1023 Mentioned at this link 12/20 www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/got-a-new-compression-gauge-and-tested-a-few-saws.348043/ |
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okie
Saw Builder
Posts: 201
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Post by okie on Jun 9, 2022 8:53:53 GMT -5
compression testing chainsaw, homemade tester plus more info: Compression tester homemade and Schrader valves Good Schrader valve is the NAPA 700-9556 at about $10 for a 5 pack Link to instructions www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/compression-tester-issues.310133/When you are checking compression on a 427 big block it's not going to make much difference where the Schrader valve is. But when your piston diameter is, say, 37 mm, adding the volume of the "pass through" hose before you get to the Schrader valve makes a huge difference. When checking chainsaw compression your Schrader valve MUST be at the spark plug hole. Here's my solution. This is for those who just like to make their own tools and/or are on a tight budget. As you will see, these homemade goodies will serve not one but two purposes. This seems like a lot of work, but it's not that bad - the instructions are long because they are detailed. Many of you will only need to make one of these. Materials: one sparkplug, the size used on your saw; one short piece of copper tubing, about 1/4" diameter; one discarded tire valve; one low-pressure Schrader valve; JB Weld. Items #1 and 3 could be had free at a small engine repair shop and tire shop, respectively. When you cut away the rubber from a tire valve, you are left with a brass tube into which a Schrader valve can be placed (see first picture). Grind the small end of the valve to reduce the diameter. If needed, drill and expand one end of the copper tubing. The two pieces just need to mate up nicely, they're going to be glued anyway (second picture). Once dry, fit the Schrader valve and note where the top thread is. Remove valve and cut away to just above that point. You want the plunger to stick out above the housing. Cut the ground electrode off the sparkplug. You'll have to remove the center electrode and ceramic from the plug, and it helps to grind away the crimp just above the hexagonal nut. Use a hammer and punch to do the rest. Fit the dried assembly into the plug - you may have to drill out the plug a little. Use enough JB Weld to seat the assembly with about 1/16th inch of the valve housing above the bottom edge of the sparkplug (third picture). When dry, fill in between valve housing and plug at the bottom and fill the rest of the void at the top. Find a nice O-ring to replace the plug gasket. Now for the two uses: with the Schrader valve in place attach your compression tester; with the Schrader valve out attach to your Mityvac for crankcase P and V test. Another link for buying a tester Its a Strandix 1023. 39.99 on ebay www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/got-a-new-compression-gauge-and-tested-a-few-saws.348043/www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/compression-tester.336165/A good compression tester for small engines: Actron CP7828A Professional Compression Tester Kit with 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 14mm Long Reach, and 18mm Adapters $45 or so Amazon link for reviewing: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00020BM28/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=sl1&tag=howtomotorepa-20&linkId=cdbd6f22890e891c57a50a4c630c7756 |
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Post by robert1 on Mar 11, 2023 9:25:26 GMT -5
I ended up taking the saw to Kaser's outdoor equipment in Knoxville, Ill. which is about 50 miles away but he said he'd take a look at it. Turns out that it wouldn't start only because it needed a carb adjustment. Now it runs very strong. He also said I need to run it at 16/1 not 32/1 like i'd been doing. Thanks to everyone that helped me take this thing apart and put back together.
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Post by blythkd on Mar 11, 2023 9:44:58 GMT -5
Wow, glad you got it running and let us know. Thank you.
Not quite sure what to think about the 16:1 fuel mix suggestion. Nobody uses that in modern chainsaws anymore. That's a 70's thing, 80's at best. Won't really hurt anything other than it'll just make more smoke and might foul your spark plug a little sooner.
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