"Brand New" Zip

[sweepleader]

New to me that is, the guy said it was a 1959. I think this is the first Zip I ever touched, the guy contacted me from an ad on Craigslist I put out looking for a gas tank for my XL-500. He figured I was a collector, he did not want this saw to be scrapped. I guess I am a collector now that I own it. Anyway, the starter "clutch" doesn't work and I need some help. It is a Fairbanks starter that slips instead of engaging. The "dogs" attached to the rewind extend when the rope is pulled but they do not grip the cup. It sort of worked before I lubed it, big mistake I guess. Now that I know the dogs need friction to work, I am wondering if the cup is too worn to engage, or if there are supposed to be "teeth" in there where the shiny part is. Maybe I will try a rope on it. Can anybody help?



The saw was stored in a barn I guess, very dirty/muddy, corroded through on the carb cover and the handle bar. It has some compression so I would like to get the starter working to find out if there is spark. It has a Homelite serial number on the bar and there is lots of wear on the hard nose, it might be the original bar. The choke is stuck, the chain is rusted stiff on the end where it laid in the dirt and I really do not know what else I will find.
Thanks,
Dan

[dynodave]

THE FAIRBANKS MORSE would be a new thing for me. I'm dead until I see a PIX of the machinery. And I have cruised the parts list from EZ until 700D. Good briefer...over. IMO the engine and direct drive are not changing at this stage (time).

[sawnami]

The dogs that come out when you pull on the rope have to have a sharp edge that digs slightly into the starter cup to rotate the crank. Any lube on the dogs or in the cup will cause it to slip and not grip the cup.

www.parkinlube.com/pdfs/Homelite%20Fairbanks%20Morse%20Starter%20Parts%20IPLs.pdf

(Dead link sweepleader, try this one (not as good) www.leonschainsawpartsandrepair.com/uploads/3/9/7/9/39792537/homelite_zip_600d_chainsaw_ipl_23794.pdf)

[sweepleader]

Here are some pictures of the problem, as illuminated by sawnami's reference to the parkinlube parts list for the starter.


[/a]This shows the wear inside the cup, I wondered why other guys would
be looking for replacement for a worn out cup, now I know.



Here are the dogs in the relaxed, retracted position.


Here they are extended in the 1 and 7 o'clock positions.  The other ends
of the dogs are actually retracted from their rest position.  The dog assembly
can be seen clearly in the ipl on parkinlube.  The little springs pull the dogs in,
friction with the stationary center post and the washer on top marked 375-37L
holds the assembly back when the rope pulley rotates to begin the start cycle.  
The cage and dogs are rotated by the pulley but there is enough play to allow
the dogs to be pushed out to contact the cup.  I think they could have put
some teeth on the inside of the cup but then they would not have sold as
many cup replacements, eh?

The dogs work correctly by sliding out under friction with the center post of
the starter when the rope is pulled. That part is fine, although lubing the
friction washers was a bad idea, the design seems to be robust enough in
that area to resist the occasional drip of oil.





The "rub" is in the sharp edge needed to engage the cup.  The light colored area
on the left of the dog face is worn flat, or rather curved to match the inner
curve of the cup.  I figured there would be enough friction there with the dogs
getting cammed out and moving at an angle. Not so, the cup shows wear
from slippage, I suppose if the dogs were sharp enough that area of the cup
would develope teeth and there would be no slippage. Perhaps the original
inner face of the cup was serrated, no way to tell from this example.

I will pull the dogs out and sharpen them so they dig in, then we will see what
the prospects are of this old beast making some chips again.  Right now I
have to get ready to entertain the granddaughter, she is bringing her parents
to dinner.



Thanks for your help, it really makes this old saw BS fun,
Dan

[sweepleader]

OK, I got spark! The starter dogs responded to a little Dremel grinding, they work great now. But no spark, so I pulled the flywheel and filed the points. Opened them up, they were very tight, and put a little grease on the rubbing block. The oil wick was dry but I was not sure about what kind of oil to use. I had some points grease that I suppose is 25 years old but I knew it would be ok on the cam and rubbing block.

Put the starter back on and spun it over, plenty of spark. Of course the kill switch does not work, on only. Might have to pry it apart, nothing to lose. I haven't checked the compression yet, that will be next. The rings and piston are soaking in acetone and ATF mix.

This saw was found in "my uncle's barn". It was packed with dirt and sawdust mixed with oil. I think I scraped out a pound or two.

The only part I found bad for sure so far is one screw holding the flywheel housing on. Very small, straight blade slotted, with the slot really messed up. Got it out with an impact driver but I don't really want to put it back. OK, so the chain is a little tight from rust too, where it was laying on the dirt floor of the barn I would guess. It will take a little soaking and pounding with a hammer and it will be fine for what I will use it for.

I don't know if I will get this thing to run but I AM going to paint it. There are no decals of any kind on it and most of the paint is gone so there is nothing to lose there either.

[dynodave]

Thanks for the update and the guided tour of this 'new for me' starter. It does look like some I have seen before. But on a homelite...fairbanks morse meant little to me, since I'm not a career OPE man (newbee).
I did however get a free ECHO PB-251 blower running today by making a custom 3mmx5mm flywheel key. The ignition made spark but the flywheel was way off in timing with no key.....The originals are punched sheet metal and the crankshaft key strip out real easy. $40+ for a new flywheel. I made the key out of tool steel. What a tiny thing. It started 2nd pull...runs great.

[sweepleader]

Congrats on the blower key Dave, nice work.             I made a custom key once too, way back when.  It was for a Mac saw motor that I got for free. The flywheel had come loose and the crankshaft keyway got broken out. The saw was not worth the price of a crank. The keyway was fine in the flywheel but the crank side was way wide on one side, and tapered to nothing. The original key was 1/8 inch but the broken part of the keyway was about 1/4 inch. I took a 1/4 inch Woodruff key and filed the flywheel side down to 1/8 inch and tapered the other side to fit the broken area. Worked just fine, I mounted it on a mini-bike with 12 inch wheels and no suspension. It went about 50 mph.         Great fun for an 18 year old, lucky I didn't kill myself.

I did pry the ignition switch for the Zip apart and cleaned the wood chips and dirt out of it. Polished the contacts a bit and now the Zip has off as well as on. A bunch of yard work and other chores have kept me from putting gas in it but maybe I will get to that tomorrow.   I would like to see if it will run. I suppose I should check the compression, maybe that can wait till I see if it will fire...

[sweepleader]

Well, now I have another Zip. This one is in "better" shape corrosion wise but has a lot of boogered up screws and other parts. Carb throttle spring and lever falling off, starter broken and loose parts in housing, muffler gutted, many screws replaced with the wrong thing, I bet you get the idea.


Here is a shot of most of it.




And a shot of the tag. Anyone know what the "5" at the front is? I have heard of A, B and "no" Zips. Is this a 5 Zip? What does that mean?




OK, so my problem is: What is this hole in the middle of the picture? When the saw is together, the hole is behind the carb. The intake port where the carb goes is in the upper right of the pic and the throttle linkage and oil line are to the left. It had the 1/4-20 screw in the next shot screwed into it but it does not seem to go anywhere. There was nothing held on by the screw except the two washers and it was really tight. It is of course tough to see down that hole, so I cannot tell if it goes anywhere. There was a lot of sawdust and crud in the hole under the screw.





Now, my first Zip at the start of this thread does not have anything in that hole!

Anyone know what is going on here? Is there supposed to be something in that hole? If so, is it supposed to be a boogered screw?

Thanks,
Dan