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Post by goodwrench on Jul 1, 2015 7:28:33 GMT -5
Greetings, New guy here am working on a Super EZ and cant get the automatic oiler to work, this is what I have done so far, bought the saws at a sale got it running everything is working except it wont oil (manual oiler works fine) removed oil pump found it to be gutted and JB welded up I guess so the thumb pumper would still work, purchased a new oil pump off ebay with instructions (original Homelite) had to install nipple for oil line in new pump, and plug one hole with aluminum plug provided, assembled, still wont oil? Note: this is the model that has seperate oil pickup lines one for the manual oiler and one for the automatic oiler, both are good. I really love this saw and hope to get it ironed out before fall firewood cutting season. Thanks so much in advance.
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Post by onlyhomelites on Jul 1, 2015 21:18:53 GMT -5
If you didn't spin the new pump over before installing it, you probably need to remove it and lube it up. The new pumps have sat in a box for so long, that the plunger tends to seize against the bronze bushing on the end of the pump. If you remove the two little screws, you can disassemble the pump and lube it up. I've had to do this with almost every NOS aluminum bodied oil pump I've used. Hope this helps!
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Post by goodwrench on Jul 2, 2015 7:52:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply, yeah I have had the new pump apart and washed it up, thought I had too much lube in it. I think I'm going to put a mark with a sharpie on the end of the pump shaft and start it up with the clutch cover off to see if the pump is indeed turning. Really love this saw and want to get it ironed out.
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Post by redrider on Jul 21, 2021 18:56:22 GMT -5
I know this is old, but rather than clutter with a new post, I’m going to add to this one and bring it to the top
Picked up another super EZ, love these little saws, and same situation as the OP. Runs great, no auto oiler, manual one works perfect.
I pulled the pump off and pressurized the oil tank to blow any crud out of the channel. I saw no hose in the tank and it appears that there is a direct channel from the oil tank to the hole that feeds the pump. Please let me know if that is correct just for my knowledge.
I had the worm gear out and I think this may be the problem but need some assistance with info. The gear that rides on the crank shaft just moves freelly on the crankshaft. Meaning I’m not sure what spins it. It is the pressure from the clutch once it’s installed? Does the clutch push against the gear collar and in turn make it spin the oil pump gear?
Second, when I spin that collar with the worm gear that’s on the crankshaft, it doesn’t seem like it is engaging the gear on the oil pump. Do these parts get worn and stop meshing? It also seems like the gears on the oil pump are a little worn, but not as bad as the newer plastic gears get then they get misaligned with the spring that serves as the worm gear on the crankshaft of a small husky or Poulan saw.
Does it sound like I need a new pump and a new collar worm gear for the crankshaft?
The OP posted something about JB weld plugging a hole on the pump. It does appear that there is some JB weld or other epoxy covering something on my pump. Could that be causing a problem?
Hopefully this explanation makes sense. Please ask questions and I’ll do my best to clarify. And of course, and information or help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jay
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Post by tangobravo on Jul 21, 2021 19:23:57 GMT -5
The worm gear slides over the crankshaft end. The inner race that goes against it is tightened when the clutch is spun tightly on. This keeps the worm gear from spinning on the shaft. The worm gear then can drive the oil pumps driven gear/plunger. The gear on that plunger gets worn easily and faster than the worm gear. It will be worn from the back and forth movement and start showing a worn gear section on it. The worm gear just rotates and seem to not wear much. The driven gear/plunger actually moves back and forth as it rotates. A "Cam screw" in the housing holds that in place and there is a groove on the end of the driven gear/plunger that makes it move back and forth when that shaft spins. Best way to check function is just turn the saw upside down when it is running and see if the end of that driven gear/plunger is turning. The gear drive is working properly if it is spinning when the engine is running. The sealer is put on these pumps by the factory when the pumps are assembled-Normal to see some on there!
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Post by tangobravo on Jul 21, 2021 20:00:52 GMT -5
Here's a good picture of one that has the driven plunger/ gear teeth being "cupped out" in the mid section. Eventually they wear so much they will start jumping teeth and stop turning.
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Post by blythkd on Jul 21, 2021 20:12:58 GMT -5
Assuming the gears are still meshed, have you pulled the pickup line out of the oil tank and checked for debris? The later saws have separate pickup lines for the manual and automatic oilers. Could be that the auto pickup line cleaned up all the sawdust from the bottom of the tank.
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Post by redrider on Jul 21, 2021 20:53:40 GMT -5
Assuming the gears are still meshed, have you pulled the pickup line out of the oil tank and checked for debris? The later saws have separate pickup lines for the manual and automatic oilers. Could be that the auto pickup line cleaned up all the sawdust from the bottom of the tank. I’ll reply to the one first because I need to reread the others so I understand them better Here is an issue I have with the oil tank, I can’t find a pickup line. I’ve fished around and around and I can’t hook anything. I do think whatever send oil to the pump is cleared though. I pressurized the tank a little and oil poured out the hole that feeds to the oil pump. I did have this issue with my 360 had its line plugged, but I was able to fish it out and clean. It’s almost like this EZ doesn’t have a line as the oil pump simply mates up to a hole on the chassis and is sealed by an o-ring. It’s like there is a channel cast in the chassis that goes to the oil pump pick-up hole. But my intimate knowledge of these saws is limited so I may be missing some I’m not seeing in the IPL
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Post by redrider on Jul 21, 2021 21:23:45 GMT -5
Here's a good picture of one that has the driven plunger/ gear teeth being "cupped out" in the mid section. Eventually they wear so much they will start jumping teeth and stop turning. View AttachmentI went back and reread the posts and then went downstairs and took the pump off again and this time took it down to parade rest. Everything you said makes sense and the driven gear is cupped all around. So I marked the end of the plunger with a sharpie, put everything back together, started the saw and watched the rotation with it upside down. It turns, but very slowly. I think that’s why I see a slight pulse of oil where it oils the bars, but not a steady flow. Even at higher saw RPMs, the plunger spins faster, but clearly it isn’t matching the RPMs of the crankshaft To check once more if the passage from the tank to the pump was clogged, I put a little air pressure in the oil tank while it was running and it streamed out the oiler hole for the bar. Tell me if you agree, but I’m going to say the gear on the plunger is worn to where it is not rotating fast enough to move oil through the pump band to the bar. Basically, I either need a new plunger or a functional pump with gears that are not worn.
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Post by redrider on Jul 21, 2021 21:27:18 GMT -5
Here's a good picture of one that has the driven plunger/ gear teeth being "cupped out" in the mid section. Eventually they wear so much they will start jumping teeth and stop turning. View AttachmentAm I calling the plunger the wrong thing? On the IPL I see the plunger is for the manual pump. But when I said plunger I was talking about the shaft that the gear is attached to. Not the worm gear but the driven gear. I just want to make sure I’m talking apples to apples
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Post by tangobravo on Jul 21, 2021 21:41:56 GMT -5
There are 2 versions of automatic oil pumps. The earlier design used a single pickup. A rubber line draws oil from the left side of the tank assembly. That line goes to the hand pump thru the left side of the airbox. There is a hard line screwed into the manual pump passage inside the air cleaner/carb box. That line then goes forward out of the airbox and into the right side of the crankcase hidden under the tank assembly. A passage then leads from the crankcase, thru the drive case on the right side, and enters the oil pump where it attaches via small o-ring sealed passage. There is a 2nd design that came out some time late 1974-75 that changed how the automatic pump gets oil. It used a separate oil pickup line that came out of the upper right rear of the oil tank and fed a rubber line down to a nipple that came out the oil pump. That 2nd design oil pump is in the picture posted above. The pumps are actually the same but one has the nipple added. These systems had reliability problems and cause a LOT of confusion. You need to know what you have before you can figure things out. If that's not bad enough, there were instruction kits to convert to the later 2nd design. Start by figuring which system you have and hope someone hasn't messed up a changeover. This gets messy very fast-
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Post by tangobravo on Jul 21, 2021 22:01:01 GMT -5
Am I calling the plunger the wrong thing? On the IPL I see the plunger is for the manual pump. But when I said plunger I was talking about the shaft that the gear is attached to. Not the worm gear but the driven gear. I just want to make sure I’m talking apples to apples 2 plungers- One manual plunger using the thumb. The other plunger is the automatic gear driven plunger in the automatic pump housing. They both work by reciprocating action. The auto plunger is driven by the worm gear. Cam action moves it back and forth.
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Post by blythkd on Jul 21, 2021 22:30:17 GMT -5
If the pump shaft (plunger) is turning, it's probably good. It will turn slow. The worm drive is a pretty good gear reduction. Think about tines on a garden tiller. Most are worm drives, engine turning 3600 rpms and you can count the revolutions of the tines.
Sorry, I was just assuming we were dealing with the 2 line system here. I guess I might have gotten thrown off by the picture posted which had the oil hose nipple on it.
Yeah, like Tango said, the older style was different. I'm a little lost on the older ones. I've worked on piles of the newer ones with 2 suction lines but don't even recall all the details of the older ones. Tango, since the older ones have oil ported to the auto oiler, do you know how it's strained if it's not coming through a pickup hose and strainer. I'm not sure. I'll check the IPL for clues. But it sounds like redrider's saw has oil flow to the pump.
Edit: It just hit me. The automatic has to be drawing through the manual lines. It's late. I feel like an idiot....again.
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Post by tangobravo on Jul 21, 2021 23:00:31 GMT -5
The original single line pickup just used a strainer on the end of the oil tube in the tank. The 2 line pickup just had another identical strainer and oil tube. (And another place to leak coming out of the tank!) There are numerous check valves, tube connections, o-rings, porosity, tight passageways, dirt, duckbill valve, to give you hell figuring out problems. 100% on board that the pump seems to be functioning properly.
Replaced parts can cause problems too if they aren't the right design-driveplate passages, oil pump and block off/nipple configuration, oil tank outlets, etc!
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Post by redrider on Jul 21, 2021 23:23:18 GMT -5
The original single line pickup just used a strainer on the end of the oil tube in the tank. The 2 line pickup just had another identical strainer and oil tube. (And another place to leak coming out of the tank!) There are numerous check valves, tube connections, o-rings, porosity, tight passageways, dirt, duckbill valve, to give you hell figuring out problems. 100% on board that the pump seems to be functioning properly. Replaced parts can cause problems too if they aren't the right design-driveplate passages, oil pump and block off/nipple configuration, oil tank outlets, etc! By the number on the saw it’s the 204th saw built on the 303 day of 1972. There is no nipple for a line on the oil pump so I’ll assume it’s the earlier model and earlier pump design. I’ve looked at ebay for a replacement and I do see a difference in pumps where one has the nipple and one doesn’t. We’re there any variations within the two designs that might be an issue on a 72 saw? Meaning if I have the non-nipple oil pump, where there any sub-designs within that type which won’t work, or are all the non nipple pumps the same. These are really good discussions and priceless info from both of you. My other EZ is also a 72 and has the west coast full wrap and muffler. It’s not a west coast saw, I just found those parts over time and added them. And I love the heck out of that thing. I know my buddy doesn’t know how to sharpen chains, but it was still pretty funny to see the little EZ keep up with his 361c. I haven’t taken one apart and timed it, but for a 41cc saw it really eats. Very thankful to have two of them and wouldn’t even mind a third. If there isn’t a difference in early oil pumps, I’ll find one, replace it, and then post the results. But after seeing that gear being cupped and worn, I’m pretty that’s the problem. Thanks guys. Always appreciate the knowledge 👍🏻
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Post by tangobravo on Jul 21, 2021 23:37:22 GMT -5
Early design pumps should all be identical. There were some replacement pumps made that were to be configured they way you needed. You would put a plug in the hole and drive it flush, then seal with epoxy. If it was for a later one, you would drive in the tube. I think one version also required driving in a plug for one of the inlet passages for the pump as well- so be careful. These pumps had a check valve outlet that can be messed up easily- a spring and check ball that removes under a screw in the body. People stack the parts up wrong or just lose the spring or ball and expect it to work properly. Check that carefully too. The spring is EASY to cock or hang up assembling.
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Post by tangobravo on Jul 22, 2021 7:59:30 GMT -5
There is an instruction sheet that came with the replacement pumps that is very informative about the pump system and how the 2 versions differed. It would be extremely beneficial to try tracking one down. I am surprised that it has never been posted here, nor over at Leons site. It would be a great "sticky post" for this site if someone can scan one for us all! Part # for the instruction sheet is 24883.
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Post by redrider on Jul 22, 2021 8:03:15 GMT -5
Early design pumps should all be identical. There were some replacement pumps made that were to be configured they way you needed. You would put a plug in the hole and drive it flush, then seal with epoxy. If it was for a later one, you would drive in the tube. I think one version also required driving in a plug for one of the inlet passages for the pump as well- so be careful. These pumps had a check valve outlet that can be messed up easily- a spring and check ball that removes under a screw in the body. People stack the parts up wrong or just lose the spring or ball and expect it to work properly. Check that carefully too. The spring is EASY to cock or hang up assembling. So the check valve (ball and spring) is probably also an issue. When I took the pump apart I didn’t see any of that under any of the screws. I know one screw holds the plunger in place. The other smaller screw just seemed like a cover and didn’t have anything under it. I’ll assume that is where the spring and ball bearing would go and that makes sense. I’m waiting for a seller to confirm the driven gear on their used pump isn’t worn and I’ll grab it. Thanks again for all the info. Priceless stuff for these old but great little saws. I’d take an EZ over an MS250 any day.
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Post by blythkd on Jul 22, 2021 14:09:05 GMT -5
The ball and spring should have been under one of the large slotted head screws on the forward side of the pump. The largest slotted head is the pump shaft follower. Above it there should be another screw that holds the ball and spring in. The only other thing to remove is the 2 small screws that hold the pump shaft bushing in the end of the pump.
If there's no ball and spring under that one screw, that sounds like your issue. If there's no check there, it'll just push the same oil back and forth rather than pull oil from the tank. Path of least resistance.
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Post by tangobravo on Jul 24, 2021 15:11:48 GMT -5
Redrider- Hope that the quest finding the problem is going well. This Homelite diagnosis page may be of benefit tracking the trouble down:
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